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Re: [discuss-dan] Buying versus Rent Strike in Denver

Well, before I had time to do a response, Bob said everything that needed to
be said, and very well. I'll only add, buying property may be a practical
alternative to renting IF you can afford it, but to pretend that you can
bring about the kind of more just society that I hope all of us in DAN are
working toward by literally buying into private property and capitalism is
delusional - and such reformist efforts take energy away from more radical
ones. Putting a band-aid on a wound is certainly necessary, but some of us
at least want to change things in a way that those wounds don't happen to
begin with.
Mark
At 12:23 PM 2/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Hi. I'm not jb, but I thought I might reply.
>
>I’m not sure that you got jb’s point. I don’t believe that he is proposing
that the "government" ban property ownership. I felt that he was making the
argument (that many anarchists before him have made including Pierre-Joseph
Proudhon
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgibin/browse-mixed?id=ProProp&tag=public&imag
es=images/modeng&data=/lv1/Archive/eng-parsed ) that property is theft. Of
course a statement like that comes across as over-simplifying the problem to
most reform-minded folks, but personally I can’t think of a truer statement.
I personally believe that the system of property ownership, a basic tenet of
capitalism – no matter how many collective living communities and what-not
there are – is oppressive and serves to make the poor poorer and make the
rich richer. I think that wrangling around within the system to create a
nice niche for peace loving community minded folks is nice, but it doesn’t
solve the many problems that capitalism creates for low income people, like
the homelessness issue that you refer to. And so what you do have is a
group, perhaps a movement, of people who can afford to make their lives a
little better for themselves within this system while the rest, the ones who
can’t afford to buy property etc. continue suffering.
>
>I have to say that framing the discussion as ‘Rent strike vs. buying
property’ or whatever is misleading. This suggests that most people have a
choice. Most people who rent are not doing so because they chose not to buy.
They’re doing so because they can’t buy property. 40% of the people in this
city live at or below the poverty level, most would not qualify for a home
loan with a conventional lender. If you’re black you’re twice as likely to
be turned down for a home loan, no matter what your income, than if you’re
white. A tenants union is an excellent tool to create change in poorer
communities. Creating a tenants union is building community. And every once
in a while tenants unions are successful in getting the property turned over
to the tenants. 
>
>I do happen to agree with you that if (when?) the working people organize
and begin to liberate amongst other things property, there will be "a whole
lot of rage". But not from the working class, this "rage" will come from the
smallest portion of society, namely the property owners (and I’m not talking
about the folks who pay the bank every month for the right to live in their
house). 
>
>bob  
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.<html><body>
><P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Hi. I'm not jb, but I thought I might
reply.<TT></FONT></P><FONT face="Times New Roman">
><P>I’m not sure that you got jb’s point. I don’t believe that he is
proposing that the "government" ban property ownership. I felt that he was
making the argument (that many anarchists before him have made including
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon </TT><A
href="http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgibin/browse-mixed?id=ProProp&amp;tag=p
ublic&amp;images=images/modeng&amp;data=/lv1/Archive/eng-parsed"><FONT
size=2>http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgibin/browse-mixed?id=ProProp&amp;tag=
public&amp;images=images/modeng&amp;data=/lv1/Archive/eng-parsed</FONT></A><
FONT size=2> </FONT><TT></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman">) that property
is theft. Of course a statement like that comes across as over-simplifying
the problem to most reform-minded folks, but personally I can’t think of a
truer statement. I personally believe that the system of property ownership,
a basic tenet of capitalism – no matter how many collective living
communities and what-not there are – is oppressive and serves to make the
poor poorer and make the rich richer. I think that wrangling around within
the system to create a nice niche for peace loving community minded folks is
nice, but it doesn’t solve the many problems that capitalism creates for low
income people, like the homelessness issue that you refer to. And so what
you do have is a group, perhaps a movement, of people who can afford to make
their lives a little better for themselves within this system while the
rest, the ones who can’t afford to buy property etc. continue
suffering.</FONT></P>
><P><FONT face="Times New Roman">I have to say that framing the discussion
as ‘Rent strike vs. buying property’ or whatever is misleading. This
suggests that most people have a choice. Most people who rent are not doing
so because they chose not to buy. They’re doing so because they can’t buy
property. 40% of the people in this city live at or below the poverty level,
most would not qualify for a home loan with a conventional lender. If you’re
black you’re twice as likely to be turned down for a home loan, no matter
what your income, than if you’re white. A tenants union is an excellent tool
to create change in poorer communities. Creating a tenants union is building
community. And every once in a while tenants unions are successful in
getting the property turned over to the tenants. </FONT></P>
><P><FONT face="Times New Roman">I do happen to agree with you that if
(when?) the working people organize and begin to liberate amongst other
things property, there will be "a whole lot of rage". But not from the
working class, this "rage" will come from&nbsp;the smallest portion of
society, namely the property owners (and I’m not talking about the folks who
pay the bank every month for the right to live in their house). </FONT></P>
><P><FONT face="Times New Roman">bob&nbsp;</FONT></TT><FONT face="Times New
Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
><a href=http://auctions.yahoo.com>Yahoo! Auctions</a> - Buy the things you
want at great prices.
><br>
>
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